Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Para hablar de todo lo demás

Moderadores: Jav, Pedro Liñán de Riaza, eduardoasb

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

mona escribió:Y
One more thing, is there any Mosque in Toledo that is still a Mosque and not converted at all?


No in historic buildings .

Toledo Muslims pray in the Mosque Attauba, which is situated in C/ Rio Bullaque, 35 · Toledo

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

Oh, Pedro, what an interesting post!

I didn't know it a all. Nice and interesting.

Thank you, one more time.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

I do have a problem because Muslims lived in Toledo for 300 years, so they built many mosques. Now my question is where are these mosques today?

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

They are still some in Toledo and in Granada, Córdoba ...
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

erodrigo
Mensajes: 38
Registrado: 05 Jun 2008, 12:49

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por erodrigo »

dear mona,
You should know that these mosques about which you speak, are built on Roman temples and visigotic churches.

According with your theory: let's return the temples to Rome and to the missing Visigotic Kingdom

PD: my English isn't good

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

mona escribió:I do have a problem because Muslims lived in Toledo for 300 years, so they built many mosques. Now my question is where are these mosques today?



yes, you really have a problem.

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

Let's see. I think there are several problems in the discussion:

The first is that Mona is not familiar with the history of Spain in general and the history of Toledo in particular. For example, Mona didn't know what religion there was in Spain before Arab occupation. Even she doesn't think it was an occupation.

Second: it was very common that the buildings were built on ancient buildings in other cultures before. Visigoths on Romans, Arabs on Visigoths, etc.

For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc%C3%A1zar_of_Toledo

I don't know if in the course of history has passed the case against the Spanish. A Muslim country that was invaded by another Christian, then retaken by the Muslims. But, then... are now the churches being used as Christianity?

Several centuries ago, States were theocratic. There was no separation of powers and, therefore, to the mosques were removed Islamic worship.
Now Spain is not a theocratic country... and Arabia Saudi? Morocco?

We can not analyze with the current thinking the events that occurred centuries ago (given that many Muslim mosques and palaces were built on churches and palaces Visigoths).

It is curious that requires respect for other religions from Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Decl ... man_Rights

Mona has much influence in their way of thinking because of her religion. For example: she has said that homosexuals are AGAINST Islam... I think is the Islam who doesn't respect homosexuality: http://www.islamawareness.net/Homosexuality/homo.html

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

mona escribió:The homosexuals are against our religion.


Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:
mona escribió:I do have a problem because Muslims lived in Toledo for 300 years, so they built many mosques. Now my question is where are these mosques today?



yes, you really have a problem.



this problem is called homophobia

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

First, I don’t have a problem at all because I just started learning about the Islamic history in Spain for a couple of years. Because I have the curiosity of learning about the Islamic history in Spain, you guys are one of the sources that I am learning from. I ask questions to you, so I can get information from you because some of my information is different than yours. :S :S :S

Another thing, you call the Islamic empire as an invasion into Europe territory ignoring that there were a dark-ages in that time. When the Umayyad Emir Abd Al-Rahman went to Spain, wasn’t there a Muslim invasion on Spanish soil?

One more thing, every religion has its own teaching about homosexuals, and I think that we are the one who follow religions’ teaching, not religions follow our teaching. Moreover, homosexual is not part of Toledo’s history. Isn’t it? ;(

As always, I respect every religion in the world, especially Christianity, Judaism, and Islam because all of them were created by one God. Also, most if not all Muslims respect all the three religions, like what the Muslim rulers said when they were ruling Spain, “Christens and Jewish are the people of the book.”

So, chema, I think you are the one who has a problem with religions. Also, I hope we stop discussing about what religions says and homosexuality because this thread in not dedicated for religions and homosexuality discussion, it’s for Spain and Toledo’s history. :( :( :(

Oh, I forgot to tell you that I presented two presentations at my school about the Islamic history in Spain. My classmates were amazed about the Islamic architectures in Spain. :D :D :D :D




NOT A LECTURE

It was not until 756 CE when Abd al-Rahman moved to Cordoba (Menocal). Against the wishes of Baghdad, Abd-al Rahman sought to reestablish the Umayyad legacy with the building of the Great Mosque of Cordoba in 785 CE and much more. The original great Mosque of Cordoba was built on the strong geometrical principles of the square-circle on top of the place where the pagan Roman temple of Janus and the Christian Visigoth church of St. Vincent once stood.
To build the original mosque, it was not only finances that had to be mobilized, but also technical skills and craftsmanship. Even the Roman Emperor Constantine was solicited for a cargo of colored glass cubes and a master mosaicist. Old Roman columns (previously razed by the Visigoths) were reused in the building of the mosque (Guichard). Having been improved and expanded upon five times, the eventual 23,400 square meter prayer hall and 500 columns are reflective of the size of the mosque, its place in the western Islamic empire and the growing Muslim Ummah.
The forest of columns allowed sunlight through the hall, which had since been filled in by the builders of the cathedral inside the Mosque. With four entrances, the Gate of the Viziers (Bab Al-Wuzara), now called the Stephen Gate, stands as a memory to the important officials who would arrive in response to the call for prayer through this gate (Kubisch). In the Patio de los Naranjos (courtyard of the orange trees), which has survived to this day, Muslims would carry out their ablutions before entering the mosque (Bohme).
For 300 hundred years, the great mosque held Christian worshippers, it was consecrated by King Ferdinand III when he conquered Cordoba. It wasn't until the 16th century when the bishop of the cathedral decided to demolish the mosque in order to build a church on top of it. Sixty-three pillars were removed from the center of the mosque to allow for the cathedral's structure.
Whereas the original mosque was built within the lifetime of Abd-al Rahman II (833-52 CE), it took over three centuries to complete the cathedral. Workers often dropped down their tools, not because they weren't being paid, but because of frequent disputes that took place regarding building works spurred by a local attachment to the beauty of the mosque.
It was not until Roman Emperor Charles V gave a clear mandate in 16th century, when work on the cathedral progressed by consecrating the mosque as a Christian place of worship. When the emperor finally visited Cordoba, it was documented that he said, "Had I known what was here, I would never have dared touch the old structure. You have destroyed something that was unique in the world and added something one can see anywhere." (Kubisch)
In 1931, Allama Muhammad Iqbal prayed in the Great Mosque of Cordoba (Wikipedia). In I980, Muslims were able to get permission to pray `Eid Al-Adha in the mosque from a local priest (see Muslims Harrassed for Praying in Local Mosque). In 2004, the Islamic Council of Spain made a formal request to the Vatican to pray in the mosque (see Cathedral May See Return of Muslims), but this was denied according to Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue


Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

mona escribió:Another thing, you call the Islamic empire as an invasion into Europe territory ignoring that there were a dark-ages in that time.


We don't ignore that.
We are very prode of giving so much culture to the big universities in Europe such as Paris through the translators of Cordoba, Toledo and Tarragona.
We talked about it and write here in some posts. But you seems not to have read it. :(
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

21 years ago, Spanish king apologized for the expulsion of Jewish from Spain.
Now, the moroscos in and out of Spain wanted Spain to apologize to them.


How come the spanish king didn't apologize to the moroscos about the expulsion?

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

mona escribió:First, I don’t have a problem at all because I just started learning about the Islamic history in Spain for a couple of years. Because I have the curiosity of learning about the Islamic history in Spain, you guys are one of the sources that I am learning from. I ask questions to you, so I can get information from you because some of my information is different than yours. :S :S :S


No, several times you have not asked for history, you have said.

mona escribió:Another thing, you call the Islamic empire as an invasion into Europe territory ignoring that there were a dark-ages in that time. When the Umayyad Emir Abd Al-Rahman went to Spain, wasn’t there a Muslim invasion on Spanish soil?


Again I say the same to you: I affirm that the Arabs made many positive things to our society. But that does not mean that Arabs do not occupy Spain in 712.

mona escribió:One more thing, every religion has its own teaching about homosexuals, and I think that we are the one who follow religions’ teaching, not religions follow our teaching. Moreover, homosexual is not part of Toledo’s history. Isn’t it? ;(

As always, I respect every religion in the world, especially Christianity, Judaism, and Islam because all of them were created by one God. Also, most if not all Muslims respect all the three religions, like what the Muslim rulers said when they were ruling Spain, “Christens and Jewish are the people of the book.”

So, chema, I think you are the one who has a problem with religions. Also, I hope we stop discussing about what religions says and homosexuality because this thread in not dedicated for religions and homosexuality discussion, it’s for Spain and Toledo’s history. :( :( :(


LOL So, you say that the homosexuals are against the Islam and your conclusion is that I've a problem with religions... rolf

Furthermore, you're taking out of context the comment of the next of homosexuality.

You have been insisting that the invasion (yes, invasion) Arabic brought positive things to our culture, then no one could speak of invasion. And I told you so will you justify an invasion of an Arab country to improve the rights of women and homosexuals?

Notice a big difference: the occidental countries in general are no-denominational or secular states. However, Arab countries, many of them are theocratic and sometimes are not democracies. That is the big difference. Here religion can say that something is sin or not, that something is allowed or not, but legislation to guarantee the rights of individuals. For example, you are guaranteed to travel alone if you like. No one is banned. And although the Catholic Church says that homosexual practices are sins, it's are not allowed to kill a person because he or she is homosexual.

mona escribió:Oh, I forgot to tell you that I presented two presentations at my school about the Islamic history in Spain. My classmates were amazed about the Islamic architectures in Spain. :D :D :D :D


I understand that your classmates would like the Islamic architecture in Spain, is very nice. Here in Toledo we have several examples of this.

But, I wonder if you've been faithful to history.

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

mona escribió:21 years ago, Spanish king apologized for the expulsion of Jewish from Spain.
Now, the moroscos in and out of Spain wanted Spain to apologize to them.


How come the spanish king didn't apologize to the moroscos about the expulsion?


Will the arabs apologize for the invasion?

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

mona escribió:How come the spanish king didn't apologize to the moroscos about the expulsion?


I don't know. I realy don't care. Why don't try to ask him? Maybe he could answer you.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

A present to Mona:

Valmardom Mosque before reformation:

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

And to finish: Grafities. The 2 cultures toguether (pair to pair) inside the Mosque.
Imagen

I'm sure you will love it :)
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Jav,

Would you please give me more information about these photos before I tell you if I love it or not? :) :)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Chema,

To correct you, the Arab invasion was in 711, not 712. I also agree with you that it was an invasion, but it was a positive invasion for the Spanish people.

Do you mean that if it’s Ok for me if a western country invades the Arab Countries to improve the rights of women and homosexuals?

It’s still unclear to me.

You asked me if I was faithful to history or not, right? I think I presented the truth.

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Jav escribió:
mona escribió:How come the spanish king didn't apologize to the moroscos about the expulsion?


I don't know. I really don't care. Why don't try to ask him? Maybe he could answer you.



You should know and also care because it’s part of Spian's history. One more thing, is he a member in the forum, too? 8|
It would be great :D :D :D :D

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

mona escribió:
Jav escribió:
mona escribió:How come the spanish king didn't apologize to the moroscos about the expulsion?


I don't know. I really don't care. Why don't try to ask him? Maybe he could answer you.



You should know and also care because it’s part of Spian's history. One more thing, is he a member in the forum, too? 8|
It would be great :D :D :D :D


I don't know and I don't care. On the other hand I know the history of Spain very well, and I'm in love with it. I'm also. no, even more in love with Toledo's history.

We all write in Toletho's forum. This name is the name given to Toledo by the mustarabs. Do you realy think that we are against the arabs in the history of Spain?
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

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