Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

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Moderadores: Jav, Pedro Liñán de Riaza, eduardoasb

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

Leonor escribió:
Chema escribió:Mona, you forgot my question...

Chema escribió:However, I guess then you do not mind an occupation in Arab countries for the sake of women and homosexuals, do you?


Chema,

Could you explain your question further? Maybe some of us don't understand what you are getting at with your sarcasm. . . and then you say your English is not very good. lol


Let's see. Mona justified the invasion by saying that Arabs had led to many developments in Spanish society. And I asked for her... Would Mona justify an occupation in Arab countries to improve the rights of women and homosexuals?

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Good question, Chema!

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

You are right about women’s rights. But, you know, that happened because the Arab rulers today are not the same rulers during the Golden Age. The reason they are different today because they don’t follow their religion’s teaching anymore. They follow other things :(

The homosexuals are against our religion. One more thing, we can’t change what God creates because God knows what he creates. I also think it's in your religion too :)

You guys were there in the center of knowledge in the world, how come you didn’t provide anything for the Arab like what they provided for you when you were living in the Dark Ages :?: :?: :?:

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Sorry, may be I misunderstand your question :D

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Restauraciones

Mensaje por mona »

Toledo was recaptured in 1085. Then in 1236, Córdoba, the seat of the Moorish culture since the eighth century, fell to the Christians, followed by Valencia in 1238, and Seville in 1248. In elegiac lament, the Moorish poet AL-Rundi wrote of the devastation Moorish Spain felt at its defeat by the infidel.

Mosques have becom churches
In which only bells and crosses are found. . .

O who will redress the humiliation of a people who were once powerful?
Yesterday they were kings in their own homes.
But today they are slaves in the land of the Infidel.


;( ;( ;(

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

At first, Spanish people were scared from the Moorish, but then they were happy from the Moorish Empire. They changed their tradition, clothes, language. Moreover, Moorish people didn’t torture the Christians or Jewish when they conquered Spain.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Restauraciones

Mensaje por Leonor »

mona escribió:
Mosques have become churches
In which only bells and crosses are found. . .


O who will redress the humiliation of a people who were once powerful?
Yesterday they were kings in their own homes.
But today they are slaves in the land of the Infidel.


;( ;( ;(


Este, muchachos, es el tema del hilo: restaurar construcciones que alguna vez fueron mezquitas, otras sinagogas, otras iglesias, otras edificaciones romanas . . . y compañeros, sed un poco abiertos a los sentimientos, a lo que en España hoy día se le llama "feelings". Me harán pensar que esto de las tres culturas en el Toledo de hoy es un verdadero mito y la mayoría quiere que lo siga siendo. La idea es muy bonita, pero el mundo cristiano sigue siendo el que manda y decide. :(

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

mona escribió:At first, Spanish people were scared from the Moorish, but then they were happy from the Moorish Empire. They changed their tradition, clothes, language. Moreover, Moorish people didn’t torture the Christians or Jewish when they conquered Spain.
Correct me if I am wrong.


Mona,

I don't disagree completely with you, but the Moorish Empire was not perfect. Citizens who were members of other religious communities (i.e. Jews and Christians) did not always have it that easy. For example, let me quote from Eliyahu Ashtor, The Jews of Moslem Spain (Vol 1, pages 88-90):

In the 9th century, "The employment of Christians and Jews as officials in the service of Moslem governments has always roused the ire of the Moslem zealots, who saw in this a degradation of their religion . . . The government oppressed the Christians in yet another fashion. It aggravated the yoke of taxation they had to bear, which was burdensome enough. Christian writers relate that Muhammad I also ordered the destruction of the churches built during Moslem rule and those structures added during this period to the older churches."

Human being are not perfect and very often think that the way they behave or worship is best. This is something that we see today or more than a thousand years ago. This behavior of "Moslem zealots" sounds very contemporary to me. Therefore, I never would say that a religion, culture or ethnic group has "the answer."

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

You are right, human beings are not perfect, and I never said that Muslims were perfect none of us is perfect, Muslim, Jewish, or christen. Everyone has its own mistakes :( :( :(

I didn’t know I can give a lectures? am I smart or what? :mrgreen:

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Restauraciones

Mensaje por Jav »

Leonor escribió:el mundo cristiano sigue siendo el que manda y decide. :(


No en España. Al menos ahora.

Por favor, este hilo, no es para debatir sobre diferentes religiones o política.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

mona escribió:The homosexuals are against our religion.


What!?!?!?

mona, I'm sure that almost all homosexuals that are not mouslims, all around the world, didn't mind your religion at all. Even religions are not very important to homosexuals.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Jav,

Would you please make it clearer or give more explanation, so I can understand what you mean? :S

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

mona escribió:Jav,

Would you please make it clearer or give more explanation, so I can understand what you mean? :S


You said: "The homosexuals are against our religion"
And I said that homosexuals don't care about your religion, or any others.
Última edición por Jav el 28 May 2009, 12:19, editado 1 vez en total.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Restauraciones

Mensaje por Leonor »

Jav escribió:
Leonor escribió:Este, muchachos, es el tema del hilo: restaurar construcciones que alguna vez fueron mezquitas, otras sinagogas, otras iglesias, otras edificaciones romanas . . . y compañeros, sed un poco abiertos a los sentimientos, a lo que en España hoy día se le llama "feelings". Me harán pensar que esto de las tres culturas en el Toledo de hoy es un verdadero mito y la mayoría quiere que lo siga siendo. La idea es muy bonita, pero el mundo cristiano sigue siendo el que manda y decide. :(
:(


Jav escribió:
Leonor escribió:el mundo cristiano sigue siendo el que manda y decide.


No en España. Al menos ahora.

Por favor, este hilo, no es para debatir sobre diferentes religiones o política.


Jav,

Eres omnipotente . . . tienes el poder de mover mensajes de un hilo a otro. . . o tal vez olvidaste quien eras cuando lo hiciste. rolf

That's the problem we face when we wear more than one hat . . . let's see, who are we today?

Let me ask you a question, Jav, Why move messages in Spanish to this thread? Isn't that way off topic? :roll:

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

All message are in English here or in Spanish but answering a question in English because some people can't write in English but they are trying to explain something.
I hope you to admit messeges in Spanish here as we are doing with some messege in English in other several threads. Becouse it realy don't care to us. Do you?

Any way, ask this questions to the moderator :mrgreen:
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Jav escribió:All message are in English here or in Spanish but answering a question in English because some people can't write in English but they are trying to explain something.
I hope you to admit messeges in Spanish here as we are doing with some messege in English in other several threads. Becouse it realy don't care to us. Do you?

Any way, ask this questions to the moderator :mrgreen:


Jav, sweetness, I for one don't have a problem. Remember, I am not a linear thinker.

¡Qué viva el libre albedrío! :bien:

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

You guys say that most if not all historical buildings were built by a different group of rulers such as Romans, Visigoth, Muslims, and then Christens. Now, is all these historical buildings represent Christens only, or they are representing all?

One more thing, is there any Mosque in Toledo that is still a Mosque and not converted at all?

I hope you understand my questions :)

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

mona escribió:You guys say that most if not all historical buildings were built by a different group of rulers such as Romans, Visigoth, Muslims, and then Christens. Now, is all these historical buildings represent Christens only, or they are representing all?

One more thing, is there any Mosque in Toledo that is still a Mosque and not converted at all?

I hope you understand my questions :)


Mona,

Do you mean an ancient building that is still used as a Mosque or are you referring to one that remains more or less intact that was never changed into a church?

If I am not mistaken, the answer to both questions is no. Please, gentlemen, correct me if I am wrong.

Now, if I don't get myself out of the house and finish with my last minute errands, I will miss my plane to Buenos Aires on Saturday. . . so if I stop writing, don't think something happened to me.

Now I am going way off topic . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4hsC0nR ... re=related

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Leonor,

I am asking God to keep you safe where ever you are :D
Also,I am feeling sad because you are leaving ;( ;( ;(

Have a good trip :D :D :D

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

In Toledo there are not any Sinagogue or Mosque in use, but if there aren't is because there aren't a community big enought to built it or to their mantenance. As here have say to you, are laws that admit to any religion built their onw buildings in order to celebrate their own religious practices. If they don't do it is because they don't want.

There is a particular/privete Sinagogue, known as a Sinagogue and looks like a Sinagogue. They can buy it and use it. If they want.

There is anothoer public Sinagogue, known by the people as a Sinagogue and that looks like
one, but is dedicated by the gouverment for the turist uses, as many others churches in Toledo that haven't got religious prctices. Exacly the same.

There are even 2 Mosques, known as it and people realy knows that it were mosques. One for turist uses (with a chistian part, not realy relevant, but now closed by reconstruction works) and another one (particular/private) for arts exhibitions.

So we have Mosques and Sinagogues, and everybody knows it, and nobody call them churches. They don't have religous uses, but the communities don't pay for buy the privetes ones neither need to built others becaouse their are not enought people.

The Church built their onw churches with their onw money, even news, having a lot of them closed in the city center (some for tourist uses), but there are not enought people to use it in this place. The spanish goverment give money not only to The Church, also to others religions (by number of users, of couse). The goberment is paying new mosques in Granada, i.e.

Is this a problem? Which? Is it our problem?
Why do you o Leonor or many others think that is our fault?

We live in a free country, you can do what you want (if you have the money, of course).

I can't buy the Cathedral or the Alcazar lo live in it, perhaps because I don't have enought money, maybe because their are not on sell. But I don't see it as a problem.

Do you?
If yes, Sorry, but I realy think that is you who have the problem.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

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