Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Para hablar de todo lo demás

Moderadores: Jav, Pedro Liñán de Riaza, eduardoasb

eduardoasb
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Registrado: 23 May 2008, 16:16
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Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por eduardoasb »

Leonor escribió:I am also aware that this is moving us, Mona and me, to a "ghetto." How many people from the forum will now stop by to read and comment? This is a true reflection of what happens in society to the "outsider," gentlemen. ;(


Don´t be afraid Loenor! This thread will not be a ghetto in any way. Furthermore, this is a really good new for our forum because I´m sure that now some new "outsiders" will come :)
Unfortunately, the level of the English of most of the spaniards is usually very low, and It is something that we have to change day by day. This is a very good way to begin.

Capitán Manrique
Mensajes: 213
Registrado: 06 May 2008, 18:31

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Capitán Manrique »

What a wondeful idea! I think that this thread is not a ghetto, but a necessary complement for this forum. Toledo must be an universal place, in spite of some small-town mentalities. I agree with Eduardo on the negative point of the matter: English is the unresolved matter of the Spanish people.

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Eduardo and Capitán M.,

I appreciate your words of encouragement. Just imagine how much fun it could be to use the language you learned in school as a means of communicating information you are passionate about . . . If you contribute once a week, I can guarantee that your skills will improve considerably. Remember that I teach languages to earn my keep, so please believe me. Your level of English does not matter at all. Use what you got and you will see improvement, and never be afraid to make mistakes. We all learn from them. . . even me!

Ya habló nuevamente la “maestra ciruela”. lol lol lol

Imagen

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

400 year old-expulsion of Morisco Muslims discussed
About 80 academics from Spain, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, France and other countries participate the meeting.
Thursday, 14 May 2009



An international meeting is discussing on Muslims who were exiled collectively from Granada 400 years ago.

About 80 academics from Spain, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, France and other countries participate the meeting.

In 1492, after the fall of last Andulus city Granada , most Muslims were exiled from the country, the rest was forced to become Christian. Resisting this situation for years, Andulus Muslims occasionally resisted against the Spanish invaders. In particular, as the inquisition records emerged, numbers reveal how Muslims were burned alive year by year.

Today, many Spanish Muslims believe that their roots are based on Andulus Muslims.

9th April 2009 marked the 400th year for one of the largest expulsion movement throughout history, which drove out Spanish Muslims who lived in the country for ten centuries and established one of the most important civilization.

Historians estimate the number of expelled Muslims between 250 thousand to 350 thousand. It is indicated that some of them went to the northern coast of Morocco, another group went to Tunisia. However, as the famous Spanish writer Juan Guytesillo expresses, this was the first ethnic and religious liquidation in Europe.

Another Spaniard author Emilio Paistroius says the expulsion of Moors from the country is the second biggest crime against Andulus and the Islamic civilization in the country. The first, according to the author, was to collect all books, that belonged to the Muslims, by the Queen Isabella and to burn them in Granada's Babu'r Reml Square. Medical books were exempted from this, he quoted as saying.

mona
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Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

In that article, it says only about 250-350 thousand of expelled Muslims from Spain. But what I learned from an Arabic source that the Morisco Muslims were about a million when they expelled from Spain in 1492.

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

mona escribió:In 1492, after the fall of last Andulus city Granada , most Muslims were exiled from the country, the rest was forced to become Christian. Resisting this situation for years, Andulus Muslims occasionally resisted against the Spanish invaders. In particular, as the inquisition records emerged, numbers reveal how Muslims were burned alive year by year.


I'm sorry, but IT'S NOT TRUE.

The invaders weren't Spanish. Muslims were the invaders In 711 they defeated the Spaniards in the battle of Guadalete. Goth King Rodrigo was defeated and probably killed at the hands of the Muslim forces led by Tariq ibn Ziyad. It was Guadalete Battle.

Since that time, started the occupation of Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula.

Then, thanks to the Battle of Covadonga started the "Reconquista".

The Reconquista (a Spanish and Portuguese word for "Reconquest"; Arabic: ????????? al-?Istird?d, "Recapturing") was a period of 800 years in the Middle Ages during which several Christian kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula succeeded in retaking the Iberian Peninsula from the Muslims. The Islamic conquest of the Christian Visigothic kingdom in the eighth century (begun 710–12) extended over almost the entire peninsula (except major parts of Galicia, the Asturias, Cantabria and the Basque Country). By the thirteenth century all that remained was the Nasrid Kingdom of Granada, to be conquered in 1492, bringing the entire peninsula under Christian leadership.

mona
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Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Would you please tell me what's not a true?

During the Visigoth rule, almost everything was collapsing in Spain.

I think you need to thank God that Muslims came to Spain because they took you out from the DARK AGES to the GOLDEN AGE, which was during the Islamic Empire ;)

It was a miracle not occupation, man :)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

For information, if anyone wants to know :D

THE HOUSE OF WISDOM: How the Arabs Transformed Western Civilization By Jonathan Lyons Bloomsbury.

Caliph Abu Jafar al-Mansur, the founder, built a great library in Baghdad, Lyons relates, “modelled after those of the great Persian kings”. Arab chroniclers later praised his mastery of logic and law and his interest in philosophy and astronomy, and gave him credit for directing translation into Arabic of numerous important works by Greek, Persian and Hindu philosophers and scientists. Data were gathered from across the widespread Islamic empire for development by Baghdad’s men of learning. His library was named The House of Wisdom.

Arabs adopted the efficient Hindu decimal system, with the nine numerals and zero we use today. On the basis of Euclid’s geometry and Ptolemy’s astronomy, the Arabs devised algebra and trigonometry and made astronomical observations of their own. At a time when the Christians of Europe believed the world was flat, found it difficult to fix the date of Easter and could not even tell the time of day, the Arabs, aided by a gadget called the astrolabe, made astronomical and terrestrial measurements to discover that our world is spherical and to calculate its size almost exactly. The astrolabe was also a valuable navigational instrument, determining latitude.

The Arabs made great progress in cartography, chemistry and medicine at a time when the Christian Church was telling adherents that diseases were divine punishments for human sins. Flagellation was one of the atonements for the Black Death.

In every discipline, Arab scholars were assisted by the manufacture of paper, while Europe’s relatively few literates were writing on cumbersome and expensive parchment. Libraries in Islam then contained hundreds of thousands of volumes, when books in Europe were very scarce.

Lyons traces the influences of Plato, Aristotle, Augustine and Thomas Aquinas on the Arabs. “Today many tend to see religion as the enemy of scientific progress,” Lyons writes. “Yet early Islam openly encouraged and nurtured intellectual inquiry of all kinds.” Muhammad himself said: “Seek for science, even in China.” In contrast with the Crusaders who rampaged through the Holy Land at the end of the 11th century, there were European scholars, such as Adelard of Bath and Michael Scot, who travelled to Islam and brought back Arabic texts for translation into Latin and beyond. Cultural go-betweens connecting East and West were helped by Muslims in Sicily and Spain to transmit knowledge.

Leonor
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Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

The following are part of a BBC series called "An Islamic History of Europe"

Part I -- Introduction to the presence of Islam in Spain--


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRSEFMCqK7I&feature=related

End of part 3 and part 4: Information on Toledo, including a Mozárabe mass--


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjXYjJ_j ... re=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxPD5_d31a0&feature=related

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

mona escribió:Would you please tell me what's not a true?


Of course!!

You said that:

mona escribió:Resisting this situation for years, Andulus Muslims occasionally resisted against the Spanish invaders.


This is a lie.

Muslim were the invaders in 711, as I wrote.

I'm sorry, but History can't be changed.

mona escribió:During the Visigoth rule, almost everything was collapsing in Spain.


Yes, it's true.

mona escribió:I think you need to thank God that Muslims came to Spain because they took you out from the DARK AGES to the GOLDEN AGE, which was during the Islamic Empire ;)

It was a miracle not occupation, man :)


It was an occupation, woman. But, as always, it's rewarding and good that two cultures live together. I agree with you that the Arabs made many positive things during their occupation.

However, I guess then you do not mind an occupation in Arab countries for the sake of women and homosexuals, do you?

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

Leonor, I can't understand these videos. I can understand (more or less) when I read english, but listening is more difficult.

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

mona escribió:For information, if anyone wants to know :D

THE HOUSE OF WISDOM: How the Arabs Transformed Western Civilization By Jonathan Lyons Bloomsbury.

Caliph Abu Jafar al-Mansur, the founder, built a great library in Baghdad, Lyons relates, “modelled after those of the great Persian kings”. Arab chroniclers later praised his mastery of logic and law and his interest in philosophy and astronomy, and gave him credit for directing translation into Arabic of numerous important works by Greek, Persian and Hindu philosophers and scientists. Data were gathered from across the widespread Islamic empire for development by Baghdad’s men of learning. His library was named The House of Wisdom.

Arabs adopted the efficient Hindu decimal system, with the nine numerals and zero we use today. On the basis of Euclid’s geometry and Ptolemy’s astronomy, the Arabs devised algebra and trigonometry and made astronomical observations of their own. At a time when the Christians of Europe believed the world was flat, found it difficult to fix the date of Easter and could not even tell the time of day, the Arabs, aided by a gadget called the astrolabe, made astronomical and terrestrial measurements to discover that our world is spherical and to calculate its size almost exactly. The astrolabe was also a valuable navigational instrument, determining latitude.

The Arabs made great progress in cartography, chemistry and medicine at a time when the Christian Church was telling adherents that diseases were divine punishments for human sins. Flagellation was one of the atonements for the Black Death.

In every discipline, Arab scholars were assisted by the manufacture of paper, while Europe’s relatively few literates were writing on cumbersome and expensive parchment. Libraries in Islam then contained hundreds of thousands of volumes, when books in Europe were very scarce.

Lyons traces the influences of Plato, Aristotle, Augustine and Thomas Aquinas on the Arabs. “Today many tend to see religion as the enemy of scientific progress,” Lyons writes. “Yet early Islam openly encouraged and nurtured intellectual inquiry of all kinds.” Muhammad himself said: “Seek for science, even in China.” In contrast with the Crusaders who rampaged through the Holy Land at the end of the 11th century, there were European scholars, such as Adelard of Bath and Michael Scot, who travelled to Islam and brought back Arabic texts for translation into Latin and beyond. Cultural go-betweens connecting East and West were helped by Muslims in Sicily and Spain to transmit knowledge.


Yes, I agree with you that all that was very good for our culture.

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

History can't be changed :!:

Then, why everything that was belongs to Muslims’ religion and history such as mosques, and palaces were converted to Churches?

Everything was changed even people were forced to convert from their own religions to Christianity, or they would face the death. Another thing, these things happened to Muslims and Jewish in Spain :( :( :(

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

mona escribió:History can't be changed :!:

Then, why everything that was belongs to Muslims’ religion and history such as mosques, and palaces were converted to Churches?

Everything was changed even people were forced to convert from their own religions to Christianity, or they would face the death. Another thing, these things happened to Muslims and Jewish in Spain :( :( :(


Then, why everything that was belongs to Visigothic’ religion (Christianity) and history such as churches, and palaces were converted to mosques? 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8|

Jav
Mensajes: 9282
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

Good question, Pedro.

mona escribió:Resisting this situation for years, Andulus Muslims occasionally resisted against the Spanish invaders.


The only one invasion was in 711.

mona is saying "Spanish invaders". Could be Spanish invaders of Spain? Obviously, they couldn't, because if they were already Spanish they were already in their country and they couldn't invade it.
Who were the Spanish? Spain didn't exist yet.
I could understand if mona were saying "invaders of Spain", understanding the hole Mouslim territory as a country called Spain (although it did't exist yet) and being invaded for other culture.

But I think "La Reconquista", was not an invation. It was a war between the diferent cultures of Spain, between religions, between catholics kingdoms and the mouslims ones. Those realy conquers the Iberian peninsula, after, were only wars between little kingdoms with loosers and winers. Nothing else.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

mona escribió:Everything was changed even people were forced to convert from their own religions to Christianity, or they would face the death. Another thing, these things happened to Muslims and Jewish in Spain :( :( :(


Sorry, but the religion in Spain was Christianity. Everything was changed when the Arab occupation.

Please, I'm beginning to think that you are who should learn History.

You can start now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Toledo

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Great discussion . . . I hate to interrupt, but I would like to post in English what Jav posted in Spanish in another thread. Although in the original version, which dates back to January 6, 2009 (this one), the organization gives some advice to the Spanish government. The conference was a couple of days ago in Brooklyn, New York.
Conference: http://jewishbreakingnews.wordpress.com/2009/05/26/brooklyn-jewish-leaders-meet-to-decry-desecration-of-ancient-jewish-cemeteries-in-spain/

Medieval Jewish Cemetery Excavation In Spain Garners Joint Statement From Athra Kadisha And
Conference Of Academicians For The Protection Of Jewish Cemeteries


Jewish cemeteries are sacred sites to be protected not only by the norms of Western Civilizations, but by the
many international treaties and understandings relating to Freedom of Religion. The United Nations Charter is
but one such.
For Immediate Release

BROOKLYN, N.Y./EWORLDWIRE/Jan. 6, 2009 --- The following statement is issued by Rabbi Lazar Stern of
Athra Kadisha and Dr. Bernard Fryshman of the Conference of Academicians for the Protection of Jewish
cemeteries regarding the excavation of the medieval Jewish cemetery in Toledo, Spain:

The immense strides made by the Spanish economy over the past few decades, the exciting new technologies
developed in areas such as energy and transportation and the emergence of an open, vibrant society have
been captivating. The prospect of Spain taking its place as a full partner in the family of enlightened nations has
been universally welcomed.

Against this background, it is all the more disturbing to learn of ongoing excavations in the more than 600-yearold
Jewish cemetery in the city of Toledo.

Those lying here are ancestors of a great many American Jews, and include sages and scholars whose words
and works, even now, guide the daily lives of the Jewish people throughout the world.

Particularly relevant is the shared history of Spain and the Jewish people: a glorious era up until the end of the
14th century, subsequently the pain and horror of the Inquisition and Expulsion of 1492.

This would seem to impose a special moral obligation, a debt of history, to protect all that remains of the
glorious Jewish past in Spain - the cemeteries. Instead, one reads of the removal of human skeletons and
remains - an act which causes pain and anguish, and awakens national memories of the terror and
helplessness which characterized the Inquisition.

The response of Spanish authorities to worldwide protests and communications has been cold and callous. On
the one hand, the Spanish government has claimed that there was no desecration because the bodies will be
reburied elsewhere.

A most inappropriate response, given that conversations and communications with Spanish authorities have
explained that a Jewish cemetery is sacred ground. Violating this ground through unearthing the dead is a
sacrilege. Even though steps are taken to rebury the remains in an orderly fashion, the desecration, the
defilement occurs at the moment the digging begins.

Jewish cemeteries are established with the understanding that they will remain intact forever. This is a
covenant with the ground and ensures that those buried there will never be disturbed.

Such considerations fall within the category of Kovod Ha Met, i.e., the Reverence (in the sense of veneration
and awe) for the Dead. Violation of this central tenet of Judaism is a serious transgression of Jewish Law.

The Spanish government has also pointed to the Federation of Jewish Communities in Spain (FJCP), a local
Jewish organization of recent origin, as sanctioning its activities.

It is highly doubtful that this is so. More to the point, no local Jewish community recently established can
arrogate unto itself any authority, control, or ownership over all Jewish cemeteries - nor do they have the
authority to sign any agreements relating to these ancient sacred sites. These are matters for experts in Jewish
law relating to cemeteries, of whom there are but a handful in the world.

Insofar as Toledo is concerned, the bodies removed must be returned to their original places of burial. As for
other Jewish cemeteries throughout Spain, particularly those lost over the last 500 years, Spain should emulate
practice in the United States. An archaeological review of a proposed building site is required to ensure it is not
a Native American burial ground. Only then is a building permit issued.

Copyright 1996-2007 Eworldwire, All rights reserved.
Press Relase Distribution By EWORLDWIRE http://www.eworldwire.com (973)252-6800.
For Media Questions: http://www.eworldwire.com/forthemedia.htm
In general, Jewish cemeteries are sacred sites to be protected not only by the norms of Western Civilizations,
but by the many international treaties and understandings relating to Freedom of Religion. The United Nations
Charter is but one such.

A person's humanity and dignity do not end with death. By respecting this dignity we affirm our own humanity
as well.

Contact: Rabbi L. Stern
(845)783-9626
(845)782-6283(fax)
akhs@thejnet.com
HTML: http://www.eworldwire.com/pressreleases/19266
MOBILE: http://e4mobile.com/pressreleases/19266
PDF: http://www.eworldwire.com/pdf/19266.pdf
ONLINE NEWSROOM: http://www.eworldwire.com/newsroom/309660.htm
LOGO: http://www.eworldwire.com/newsroom/309660.htm
CONTACT:
Lazar Stern

athra kadisha
203 Penn Street
Brooklyn, NY 11211
PHONE. 845-783-9626

KEYWORDS: Asra Kadisha, Jewish cemetery, Rabbi L. Stern, Jewish holy sites, Spain, Toledo, Cemetery,
Jewish Cemetery, Jewish culture, jewish history, ancient religion, old cemeteries, cemetery desecration, religion
SOURCE: ATHRA KADISHA
Copyright 1996-
http://www.eworldwire.com/pdf/19266.pdf

Chema
Mensajes: 808
Registrado: 10 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Chema »

Mona, you forgot my question...

Chema escribió:However, I guess then you do not mind an occupation in Arab countries for the sake of women and homosexuals, do you?

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

ERROR
Última edición por Leonor el 27 May 2009, 16:11, editado 1 vez en total.

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Chema escribió:Mona, you forgot my question...

Chema escribió:However, I guess then you do not mind an occupation in Arab countries for the sake of women and homosexuals, do you?


Chema,

Could you explain your question further? Maybe some of us don't understand what you are getting at with your sarcasm. . . and then you say your English is not very good. lol

Responder