Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

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Moderadores: Jav, Pedro Liñán de Riaza, eduardoasb

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »



Se trata de una miniserie de televisión aún no emitida (sólo se ha hecho un preestreno en algún cine madrileño), producidos por tres cadenas publicas (TVE, TV3 y Aragón TV). Al parecer por motivos legales TVE no podrá emitir la miniserie.
Sólo será vista en un primer momento en Cataluña y Aragón, puede que más tarde sea emitida por el resto Comunidades Autónomas con televisión autonómica.
De todas formas, además de la miniserie, también se ha realizado un documental asociado a la misma, que, este sí, será visto en TVE.
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This is a TV miniseries not even televised (only had a preview in a theater in Madrid), produced by three public channels (TVE, TV3 and TV Aragon). Apparently for legal reasons TVE can not give the miniseries.
It will only be seen initially in Catalonia and Aragon, which which can later be issued by the rest of the regions with autonomous television channel

Anyway, apart from the miniseries, has also produced a documentary related to it, that this itself will be seen in TVE.

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:La traducción y transcripción que Mona ha traído de la Wikipedia creo que es errónea. Todos los expertos traducen "dulce nombre" no "dulce hombre"

http://www.jarchas.net/jarcha23.htm

----------------------

The translation and transliteration Mona has brought I think Wikipedia is wrong. All experts translate "sweet name" not "sweet man"


Pedro,

You are right, it wasn’t my translations. I got them from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabic_language

But if it was about the name, why does it says
My lord Ibrahim,
oh you, sweet man!
Come to me
at night.
If not, if you don't want to,
I will go to you,
tell me where
to find you.

Also, that’s what it says in Arabic too.

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

It is a poetry of love. What's strange about the metaphor "sweet name" when she spoke of her beloved?

However I repeat that all philologists, experts and specialists in the field Mozarabic-Kharjahs say it's "SWEET NAME"


http://www.jarchas.net/jarcha23.htm

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Mozarabic/Mozarabic-Kharjahs.htm


Muhammad Ibn Ubada al-Qazzaz al-Malaqi

Muhammad ibn Ubada, the Silk Merchant of Málaga (second half of the 1000s; Muslim). Sources: García G;omez 1; Heger 22; Sola-Solé 11.

In the verses below the comparison of a lover/beloved with a hawk/dove is in accordance with the traditional lyric. There are close counterparts to this kharja in Castilian and in Galician-Portuguese. Sources García Gómez 6; Heger 27; Sola-Solé 13.

Mio sidi Ibrahim, / ya nuemne dolge!
Fen-te mib, / de nohte.
In non, si non keris, / irey-me tib.
Gar-me a ob plegar-te.

My lord Ibrahim, / O sweet name!
Come to me at night!
If not, if you don't want to, / I shall come to you.
Tell me where I can find you?

* * *

Al sa'amu mio hali, / porqe hali qad bare.
¿Ké farey, yaummi? / ¡Faneq [me] bad lebare!

My condition is death, / because it's so desperate.
What can I do, O mother? / The falcon will carry me off!



Have you heard this jarcha (kharjahs)?

I can post the mp3

Jav
Mensajes: 9273
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

Please, do it.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:La traducción y transcripción que Mona ha traído de la Wikipedia creo que es errónea. Todos los expertos traducen "dulce nombre" no "dulce hombre"

http://www.jarchas.net/jarcha23.htm

----------------------

The translation and transliteration Mona has brought I think Wikipedia is wrong. All experts translate "sweet name" not "sweet man"


"Dulce nombre" (name) makes absolutely no sense to me! Mona what is the original word in Arabic?

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Leonor escribió:
Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:La traducción y transcripción que Mona ha traído de la Wikipedia creo que es errónea. Todos los expertos traducen "dulce nombre" no "dulce hombre"

http://www.jarchas.net/jarcha23.htm

----------------------

The translation and transliteration Mona has brought I think Wikipedia is wrong. All experts translate "sweet name" not "sweet man"


"Dulce nombre" (name) makes absolutely no sense to me! Mona what is the original word in Arabic?


In Arabic It’s (????? ?????) as a "sweet man" or in another words (handsome man) in English.
Última edición por mona el 31 Jul 2009, 18:00, editado 1 vez en total.

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

Jav escribió:Please, do it.



Lo he subido a Goear desde donde se puede escuchar sin necesidad de descargarlo.


Meu sidi Ibrahim (kharja - SN, women, raba, lute)
Performers:
Barbara Thornton (voice), Elizabeth Gien (voice), Debra Gomez (voice), Cornelia Melian (voice),
Susanne Norin (voice), Consuelo Sanudo (voice), Benjamin Bagby (voice, harp, lute), Stephen Grant (voice), Eric Mentzel (voice, symphonia, organistrum),
Raimund Nolte (voice), Bernhard Schneider (voice), Rainer Ullreich (fiddle, rebab)


P.D. Leonor ¡¡y yo que te creía una romántica!! :enamorao: y resulta que "dulce nombre" carece de sentido para ti :( :( :( :( :( :(

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

I can post the mp3


Please do it, but if it's in English, so I can understand. :)
Última edición por mona el 31 Jul 2009, 18:11, editado 1 vez en total.

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

mona escribió:
I can post the mp3


Please do it, but if it's in English, so I could understand. :)



In English? Of course not. Mozarabic language :)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:
mona escribió:
I can post the mp3


Please do it, but if it's in English, so I could understand. :)



In English? Of course not. Mozarabic language :)


;( ;( ;( ;( ;(
Última edición por mona el 31 Jul 2009, 18:27, editado 1 vez en total.

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:
P.D. Leonor ¡¡y yo que te creía una romántica!! :enamorao: y resulta que "dulce nombre" carece de sentido para ti :( :( :( :( :( :(


It also makes sense, now that I think about it. . . but very different sense :D Nevertheless, Mona has told us that the original poem uses the word "man"/"hombre."

I think Pedro that you don't know me well. I spent more than a week talking (no sean mal pensados) with a Scottish Catholic priest in Indiana and Chicago and he would perhaps tell you that I am more the kind of woman who might utter the words "dulce hombre" than "dulce nombre." He would also tell you that I am good, perhaps a very good human being, but belong in Dante's hell where the people with a good sense of humor can be found. No, alas, I have not converted yet. Nevertheless, I attended mass twice in one week and . . . :anda:
Última edición por Leonor el 31 Jul 2009, 19:03, editado 1 vez en total.

Pedro Liñán de Riaza
Mensajes: 1894
Registrado: 04 Oct 2007, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Pedro Liñán de Riaza »

Leonor escribió:
Pedro Liñán de Riaza escribió:
P.D. Leonor ¡¡y yo que te creía una romántica!! :enamorao: y resulta que "dulce nombre" carece de sentido para ti :( :( :( :( :( :(


It also makes sense, now that I think about it. . . but very different sense :D Nevertheless, Mona has told us that the original poem uses the word "man"/"hombre."

I think Pedro that you don't know me well. I spent more than a week talking (no sean mal pensados) with a Scottish Catholic priest in Indiana and Chicago and he would perhaps tell you that I am more the kind of woman who might utter the words "dulce hombre" than "dulce nombre." He would also tell you that I am good, perhaps a very good human being, but belong in Dante's hell where the people with a good sense of humor can be found. No, alas, I have not converted yet. Nevertheless, I attended mass twice in one week and . . . :anda:


:) Sólo una pequeña puntualización... Mona no ha dicho que el poema original usa la palabra "hombre", ha dicho que en la versión del poema que está en la Wikipedia (¡si algo no está en la wikipedia no existe! :mrgreen: ) usan la palabra "hombre". Yo si que afirmo y me baso para afirmarlo en la tesis doctoral de la filóloga Alma Wood Rivera y en las versiones de otro montón de expertos (es muy fácil acceder en cualquier biblioteca a la bibliografía usada por Alma Wood), que la palabra original del poema es "nombre".

P.D. ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡Dos veces por semana a misa!!!!!!!!! 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8| 8|

Jav
Mensajes: 9273
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

First of all: The original (though, writed in arabic alphabet) it's not arabian. It is Mozarabic.

It was transcripted by Alma Wood as:

nu'mn / nw'mn

Mona, it looks like or sound to "man" in arabic?

In latin not. it looks like more to "nomine" than to "homo". Please note, and remember than Mozarabic was 60% romance terms and 40% oriental terms. (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_moz%C3%A1rabe)
Última edición por Jav el 31 Jul 2009, 23:08, editado 1 vez en total.
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Jav escribió:First of all: The original (though, writed in arabic alphabet) it's not arabian. It is Mozarabic.

It was transcripted by Alma Wood as:

nu'mn / nw'mn

Mona, it looks like or sound to "man" in arabic?

In latin not. it looks like more to "nomine" than to "homo". Please note, and remember than Mozarabic was 60% romance terms and 40% oriental terms.


Jav,

Arabic is my first language, and when I read the translation, I understand that it says “man” not a “name.” May be it was translated wrong.

Jav
Mensajes: 9273
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

The translation you have read is wrong, as all the others in wikipedia.

It wasn't written in arabic. It was in Mozarabic like this: nu'mn / nw'mn
Is this mean "man" in arabic?
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

mona
Mensajes: 149
Registrado: 16 May 2009, 04:28

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por mona »

Jav escribió:The translation you have read is wrong, as all the others in wikipedia.

It wasn't written in arabic. It was in Mozarabic like this: nu'mn / nw'mn
Is this mean "man" in arabic?


I don’t know, but the Arabic translation says “man.”

What about the other translations, Spanish, Latin, and Portuguese. Did they say “man” or “name?”

Jav
Mensajes: 9273
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

All of them say "man", becouse they unsderstood wrong the Mozarabic word "nu'mn" / "nw'mn" from Latin "nomine".
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

I just opened toletho.com and came across the new page, and to my surprise read the following:

Tolétho es el nombre que utilizaban los mozárabes para denominar a nuestra ciudad, cuyo término desembocaría y evolucionaría hasta Toledo. La que fue Toletum (de Tollitum, levantado, en alto en Latín, Tulaytulah (??????), la alegre en árabe y Toldoth (?????), pueblos en Hebreo, es hoy la capital de la provincia de Toledo y de la Comunidad Autónoma de Castilla . . .

I was never aware that Toldoth meant "people" or "towns," but did see it defined as "generations" as we see below:

????????? (tol-dot)
The word ????? (tol-dah) literally means "birthing," the generation that proceeds out of the progenitor. This word is written in the plural, as indicated by the feminine plural suffix ?? (ot). Because of the addition of this suffix, the letter ? (h) is dropped.

Biblical Hebrew, E-Magazine
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/044.doc
Última edición por Leonor el 02 Ago 2009, 17:08, editado 1 vez en total.

Jav
Mensajes: 9273
Registrado: 17 Ene 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Jav »

Already changed
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)

Leonor
Mensajes: 645
Registrado: 05 Abr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discussion and Information about Toledo in English

Mensaje por Leonor »

Jav escribió:Already changed


I am curious to know what the original source of the Hebrew translation was? Wikipedia? lol

Responder