Tolétho · El foro de Toledo

Nobles discretos varones que gobernáis a Toledo, en aquestos escalones desechad las aficiones, codicias, amor y miedo. Por los comunes provechos dexad los particulares. Pues vos fizo Dios pilares de tan riquísimos techos, estad firmes y derechos. Manrique
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NotaPublicado: 04 Ago 2009, 12:47 
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mona escribió:
Granada is part or the heart of the Iberian Peninsula, isn’t it?


Yes, I repeat: Why they say "Iberian peninsula" when they talk about Granada?
And please, don't forget that this forum is not about Granada or Spain. It's about Toledo.

mona escribió:
I think that Muslims used to call Spain "Espania or ????????," but you might have different information.


Hispania / Espania or wahtever was called to ALL the iberian Peninsula, from Asturias to Al-Andalus, from Lusitania to all the others catholic kingdoms or Taifas.

So how could the Spanish conquered the Iberian peninsula? What Spanish? The Spanish from Granada, from Asturias, Toledo, Castilla? Who?

Mona, sorry, but they were all Spanish!

_________________
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)


Última edición por Jav el 04 Ago 2009, 23:53, editado 1 vez en total

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NotaPublicado: 04 Ago 2009, 17:45 
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E. García Gómez, "Veinticuatro jaryas romances en muwassahas árabes", Al-Andalus, XVII (1952), 57-127 **
Cantera 1957: F. Cantera Burgos, La canción mozárabe. Santander, 1957. (Publicaciones de la Universidad Internacional Menéndez Pelayo, 7).
Borello 1959: R. A. Borello, Jaryas andalusíes. Bahía Blanca, 1959 (Cuadernos del Sur).
Frenk Alatorre 1966; Margit Frenk Alatorre, Lírica hispánica de tipo popular. México, 1966.


Pedro, "dulce hombre," thank you so much. I do believe that those scholars you cited and in one case quoted **, consulted primary sources, but Alma Wood . . . and even they differed in their translations somewhat, if not in "dulce nombre." One, García Gómez, had two versions of his own translation.

I am sorry to repeat what you said, Pedro. I am translating for Mona, athough I am not doing it word for word. I understand both Mona and your frustration when you are not reading or writing in a language you know well. . . and I am not going to be like someone we all know well and tell you that this thread is called "Discussion and Information about Toledo in English." We are learning so much from each other, not only by this exchange of ideas, but also by the use of so many languages (English, Spanish, Arabic).

Mona, please don't feel discouraged. There is something called . . . let's see if I can translate it correctly, "Toledan personality," that is very cold and strict. It does not allow the presence of an outsider very easily. Let's face it, instead of being overwhelmingly happy to have two women who can put up with their temper, and who happen to be one Muslim and the other Jewish, does not even remind them that they live in the city of THE THREE CULTURES. Pedro, you are our "dulce hombre." I am, of course, not referring to you. You are a gentleman. :enamorao:

Chicos, no piensen mal que no estoy tirando ningún tejo ni ladrillo, tendría que ser en mi caso. lol lol lol
I am not flirting!! (The translation doesn't do it justice or perhaps I can't express humor in English)


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NotaPublicado: 05 Ago 2009, 00:03 
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Paso de participar mas aquí. Encima que tratamos de ayudar y explicar cosas, con toda la paciencia del mundo, con personas en las que, sinceramente, dudo si entran a colaborar o a atacar, se meten con nosotros.

Leonor escribió:
There is something called . . . let's see if I can translate it correctly, "Toledan personality," that is very cold and strict. It does not allow the presence of an outsider very easily.


Y a demás, esta joyita:

Leonor escribió:
Let's face it, instead of being overwhelmingly happy to have two women who can put up with their temper, and who happen to be one Muslim and the other Jewish, does not even remind them that they live in the city of THE THREE CULTURES.


Yo me retiro. Ni si quiera me voy a esforzar en traducir esto.

_________________
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)


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NotaPublicado: 05 Ago 2009, 00:14 
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Aviso:

Creo que hay personas aquí que estan teniendo ya demasiada paciencia.
Recuerdo a todos que los TROLS (personas que entran en el foro sólo a meter cizaña) estan prohibidos en este foro.

Entrar a criticar a los toledanos de manera sistemática y reiterativa, es algo que no se va a tolerar.


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NotaPublicado: 05 Ago 2009, 09:45 
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Leonor escribió:
Mona, please don't feel discouraged. There is something called . . . let's see if I can translate it correctly, "Toledan personality," that is very cold and strict. It does not allow the presence of an outsider very easily. Let's face it, instead of being overwhelmingly happy to have two women who can put up with their temper, and who happen to be one Muslim and the other Jewish, does not even remind them that they live in the city of THE THREE CULTURES.


Leonor: I think we don´t deserve these words. I think that maybe you are more cold and strict with us than we are with you...although you use millions of emoticons.
Think twice the next time you are going to write something here because maybe you will hurt someone with no reason at all.
As Jav, I begin to feel a little bit bored and tired of reading this threat.
You are who live in the XIII century, not ours. You suffer from an illness, I told you before: you think that toledans hate jewish people and it is not true, although sometimes it seems that you try that we hate them by writing sentences like these ones.


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NotaPublicado: 05 Ago 2009, 09:56 
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Jav escribió:
mona escribió:
Granada is part or the heart of the Iberian Peninsula, isn’t it?


Citar:
Yes, I repeat: Why they say "Iberian peninsula" when they talk about Granada?
And please, don't forget that this forum is not about Granada or Spain. It's about Toledo.


I t’s because Garnada was the last city under the muslim rule in the iberian península. I won’t forget, and I know that I break the rules of the foro sometimes, but I still believe that the histroy and the cities in Spain are all connected to each other with everything.


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NotaPublicado: 05 Ago 2009, 17:03 
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My last message was censored and therefore removed by the Webmaster. He was about to stop me from accessing the forum altogether. Under these conditions, after four years of participation, I can no longer continue being part of this "community."

I hope that this new message does not disappear.


Última edición por Leonor el 06 Oct 2009, 15:34, editado 2 veces en total

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NotaPublicado: 06 Ago 2009, 05:45 
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Everyone is leaving 8| 8| 8| :no: :no: :no:
I thought that we have democracy to share opinions in this forum :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;( ;(


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NotaPublicado: 06 Ago 2009, 08:45 
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Leonor: your last message was censored because you were insulting another forumer in it. Only this, is a reason to forbid you from the forum. I only delete your messege in consideration with your years in the forum. Nobody have left you. You can do what you want less insulting people.

Mona: There are democracy in the forum. But, at less here, we don't admit people insulting others.


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NotaPublicado: 09 Ago 2009, 05:54 
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Three cultures

Under this name, one of the good members in this forum, which she represents one of these three cultures, had left the forum. So, the forum is empty without her, and it won’t represent the three cultures as well as Toledo does. Now, I am asking her to return to share her knowledge with us, so we can contribute The Forum of the Three Cultures.
Leonor:
Please, come back to the forum

Leonor:
Por favor, vuelva al foro

??????
???? ?????? ??? ???????

Leonor:
??? ???? ?? ???????

Leonor:
S'il vous plaît revenir sur le forum


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NotaPublicado: 09 Ago 2009, 12:39 
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mona escribió:
so we can contribute The Forum of the Three Cultures.


This is NOT a Forum of the Three Cultures.

This is about the urbanism, transports, infrastructures, architecture and archeologie of Toledo.
Of course, we can't separate Toledo of the History but this subforum is an Off Topic, as you can read in the tittle.


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NotaPublicado: 08 Sep 2009, 06:13 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpTOjjRkL2o


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NotaPublicado: 08 Sep 2009, 12:28 
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Mona, I was thinking...

Did you read the subject of this thread?
Do you really thing that your video is in the correct place?


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NotaPublicado: 25 Sep 2009, 06:56 
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??????? ???????? ????? ??? ??????????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? (mezquita de Cristo de la Luz) ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? .?? ????? ??? 390 ????? 999 ???????. ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? 1085 ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????.

?????? ???? ???? ????? (7,74? 8,60x?) ???? ??? 3 ????? ?????? 4 ???? ?? ???????, ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? (??? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??? ????? ??????) ???????? ??? 4 ????? ?????. ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????.??????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???????:

????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????.
?? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?????????.
??????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??????. ??????? ????? ?????? ???? "??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????".
?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????.


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NotaPublicado: 25 Sep 2009, 19:46 
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Google translates:

La fachada principal de la puerta de la mezquita Almrdommsadjad puerta de la mezquita Almrdom o la luz de Cristo (Mezquita de Cristo de la Luz) es uno de los más antiguos monumentos de Toledo. Fue construido en 390 AH, 999 AD. Después de la ocupación de la ciudad por los cristianos en 1085, alrededor de la mezquita a una iglesia llamada la luz de Cristo.

Cuadrados de construcción Mezquita (7,74 m x 8,60 m) se divide en 3 Oroaq por 4 filas de arcos, bóvedas, todos menores de nueve Mspndp las filas de la frontera de la plaza (en la forma de herradura, una de las particularidades más importantes del estilo arquitectónico andaluz de origen gótico), basado a 4 columnas y productos intermedios. Cúpula de media alta del resto de las cúpulas equipadas con ventanas laterales permiten que la luz para entrar en el edificio. La fachada principal de la mezquita se compone de tres niveles:

La primera contiene tres secciones de la mezquita.
En la segunda nos encontramos con una serie de frontera ciegos plaza abarca.
El tercer nivel está compuesto de los salarios Mashrabya basa sobre el famoso manuscrito. Lo que permite-en la construcción año de la mezquita. Caligrafía Escritura dice: "En el nombre de Dios, construyó esta mezquita, Ahmed Bin hierro desde su punto de vista de la recompensa de Alá VTM la ayuda de Dios por la construcción de Moisés Ben Ali SE VTM en Muharram novecientos y un tercio."
La construcción es uno de los elementos más bellos del arte omeya en Andalucía y una fuente de inspiración para el arte, que era nativo mudéjar de Toledo.

_________________
Toledo, solar hispano, crisol de la raza íbera. Dichoso aquel que naciera español y toledano. (Cervantes)
Hablad de castellanos y portugueses, porque españoles somos todos. (Luís Camões)
Sobre Toledo y otra ciudad: Si tan grande, no tan fuerte; si tan fuerte, no tan grande. (Isabel I de Castilla)


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NotaPublicado: 26 Sep 2009, 16:36 
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Jav escribió:
Google translates


Y además Google encuentra, que es su principal función. Ese texto en árabe es la entrada en la Wikipedia (árabe) de la Mezquita del Cristo de la Luz................ (non capisco niente)


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NotaPublicado: 27 Sep 2009, 04:52 
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No medieval Muslim or Jews would have been surprised by the advice of Queen Elionor of Catalonia-Aragon to her son Prince Martin in 1374, when she told to ignore the complaints of several Muslim Aljamas about the weight of their debts to Valencia Jew Jafuda Alatzar. After all, Jafuda alone paid more taxes to the Crown than virtually all the Muslim communities of kingdom of Valencia combined.


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NotaPublicado: 29 Sep 2009, 08:18 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHwuamoFC-U


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NotaPublicado: 29 Sep 2009, 08:24 
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Tariq ibn Ziyad crossed the Straight of 'Gibraltar' at first with the sole intention of avenging king Roderic for the crime he committed. However, because of the weakness of the kingdom due to civil war, Tariq opted to continue his occupation of Roderic's entire empire. Another theory for the occupation by the Arab Muslims of Spain is that because of their persecution, the Jews called upon their contacts in North Africa, who in turn encouraged the able Arabs to capture
Citar:
Spain. This allowed the Almoravids and the Almohads to establish themselves in Spain. 4 Nevertheless, without a doubt, the Jews supported and welcomed Muslims in Spain because they were great beneficiaries under Muslim rule. 5

Muslims entered Spain not as aggressors or oppressors, but as liberators. In this multicultural society, many Jews and Christians held government positions. Moreover, the Golden Age of Jewish history is in fact known as the period of Muslim rule in Spain. Islam allowed the Jews to flourish in Spain, with the example of the renowned philosopher Moses Maimonides, (Musa ibn Maymun) who wrote Guide to the Perplexed. "Judaism probably welcomed the conquest of Spain by the Muslims in 711. With the Muslim conquest began a Golden Age of freedom and tolerance for Jews. They freely entered the fields of government, science, medicine, and literature." 6 Spain was home to by far the largest and most brilliant Jewish community in Europe; elsewhere, the Jews were hounded and persecuted. Although non-Muslims paid more in taxes than the Muslims, it was by far less than any previous government had imposed upon them, especially Roderic's. In addition, it obviously wasn't much of a burden, however, since non-Muslims freely opted and longed to live under Muslim rule.

"Throughout the period of Islamic rule, Al-Andalus was a remarkable example and outstanding model of tolerance." 7 We fail to remember that the tolerance the Muslims, in accordance to their faith, displayed towards the Jews and Christians enabled them all to live together in relative peace and harmony, an indication of the Greatness of Islam, without question. No where else has there been so long and so close of a relationship between the 3 Great faiths. All Jews and Christians were allowed to maintain their beliefs and live their lives as they desired as long as they respected their Muslim rulers. "Some Mozarabs took issue with the tolerance Muslim authorities displayed toward them and the Jews, a tolerance based on two Qur'anic verses: "No compulsion is there in religion" (2:256) and "If thy Lord had willed, whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together. Wouldst thou then constrain the people until they are believers?" (10:99)..." 8 As a result of the compassion Islam displayed towards the non-Muslims inhabitants, many of them embraced Islam. Many accepted Islam simply because Islam provided a superior, healthier way of life at a time when the social system was in rapid decay. 9 Unfortunately, religious tolerance was never a virtue in Christian Europe, as in the example of Charlemagne. 10 And so, the peace exhibited under Muslim rule did not continue after the last of the Muslim rulers was defeated in 1492.


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NotaPublicado: 29 Sep 2009, 14:39 
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Hola mona:
Creo , con todo mi respeto, que simplificas la historia demasiado . Dices que "Throughout the period of Islamic rule, Al-Andalus was a remarkable example and outstanding model of tolerance." ( "Durante todo el período de dominación islámica, Al-Andalus fue un ejemplo notable y destacado modelo de tolerancia")“pero ese periodo de la historia de España es muy heterogéneo e ideológica y políticamente variado. La tolerancia que se dio durante del Califato no se parece en nada a la intolerancia de la etapa Almohade, igual que la intolerancia cristina a partir de finales siglo XIV no tiene nada que ver con la forma en que se trataba a los los judíos en los reinos cristianos durante los dos siglos anteriores.

Maimonides, el gran personaje del que hablas, nació en Córdoba, el año 1135 (D. C). En 1148, siendo casi un niño, con solo 13 años, para salvarse de la intolerancia almohade tuvo que abandonar su ciudad con su familia y exiliarse, primero a Almería, y luego a Fez (1158) y Palestina (1165) desde donde viajó finalmente al Cairo, lugar en el que pudo definitivamente establecerse y donde ocupo varios cargos públicos en época de Saladino.

También podríamos comentar el caso de Yehuda ha-Levi, considerado como uno de los mejores poetas medievales en lengua hebrea y uno de los primeros escritores en lengua romance, que tuvo que emigrar de la Córdoba musulmana al Toledo cristiano.


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